Tony Toye sentence handed down

[Mallard_maniac]

but they did worse than Foiles and got no prison. Plus only a two year hunting ban? Come on.

be curious to know the thought process and how you got here. Read Foiles' history of violations over the course of years in two different countries beligerently taking excess limits, birds out of season, shooting banded geese in a city park, fudging log books for clients, animal cruelty, etc.... and these guys' party hunting with undercover agents doesn't seem quite as terrible. As far as any of us know it was a 1st offense (and again based on the disdain this reporter had for this group, I'm sure if they had more of a rapsheet we'd have heard about it) so a fine and loss of privileges for 2 years is pretty SOP. People make mistakes, they made one and they're paying for it....handsomely. Hopefully they learn and correct it, but I certainly can't get on board with condemning them for life over party hunting and getting caught for the 1st time. I'm not, and I doubt any of us are, in a position to cast stones.

[gimpfinger]

[quote="h2ofwlr"][quote="maplelakeduckslayer"]Honestly, group bagging should be legal I don't see what the big deal is about that. You hunt more than 2 guys it's almost impossible to know who hits what

BS, Do you really think we are that stupid to buy that line of ignorance?

[quote="lanyard"]yeah, but it's not impossible to count how many birds and flip a coin and bag the gun. [/quote] Yup. After each volley you MUST (per the USFWS) determine whose birds are whose. The birds MUST be separated per each hunter (no throwing them in a pile is allowed). And you can not "take" my birds than the daily limit.

if you are a G/O you are then indeed held to a different standard - just like businesses are - for they are a business. Think not? Ask a truck driver with a Class A drivers lic what the penalties are for a DWI and did you know that it is far lower threshold?
Ignorance is NOT a valid defense when running a business. As a business you are to be fully aware of the laws and keep from breaking them. If you do the penalties are far greater than a rank and file average Joe citizen.[/quote]

What was the ignorant part? I've hunted plenty of times with 3 guys, 4 birds hit the water and everyone thinks they hit 2 each. So who hit what?[/quote]This is why I only hunt with a select few that know when they kill something. Hate that one guy that always hits every bird dropped no matter where it was.

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[maplelakeduckslayer]

Ya, I don't even care about bands, but in 14 years hunting with my one buddy he has "shot" 8 and the rest of us have one each, he sure is a good shot on those banded ones

[Nershi]

So let's say my buddy and I get checked and we have our 12 ring necks, 6 each. A warden checks us and asks how many each of us shot and we each say six. Could we get issued a group bagging or party hunting ticket because our birds are in one pile? Sure we could. Would it hold up in court? Absolutely not. Please show me where it says limits must be kept in separate piles in the regs. Innocent until proven guilty. The only way they you get convicted is if they trick you in to admitting guilt or if they watch you. Even if they watch you it'd be tough to prove if you're both shooting at the same time.

I've been checked a handful of times with my limit and I know of plenty others who have to. All the birds were in one pile and they never mentioned it. Probably because they know there is no way the ticket would hold up in court.

I'm guessing fowler is making chit up saying state and fed wardens have both said you can get a ticket for not separating birds. If it truly happened those wardens were speaking from the law enforcement side of the fence and not the judicial side. Lots of people get tickets for things for game and non-game laws but that doesn't mean they means they get convicted.

I've heard of a few instances people get caught for party hunting. In each one someone gets a ticket for over the limit not for party hunting. In toye's case the warden would have got the ticket for over the limit.

The only time I worry about separating birds is crossing the Canada border. That's not a place I want any additional questions. I often separate in the field and returning but when I forget or it's not easy to do I don't worry the least bit.

I'm guessing toye told the warden to keep shooting knowing they were at their limit. If they just claimed they shot over after the hunt was over that's a classic case of entrapment.

[Hansen]

The warden barely even looked at our birds last year. He quickly counted them and moved on. He payed more attention to our plugs, licenses, shot gun shells etc. Those items are black and white. "Party hunting" is so grey it would be impossible to prove. If you have a group limit, as long as it doesn't exceed 12, 18 whatever. Especially when you have to walk into an area. One dude carries the mojos, another the decoys and another the birds on a strap.

[hobbydog]

I had a very raw experience with a Minnesota CO. Long story but he harassed us for an hour on who shot what. He even tried to get my buddies 13 year old son off to himself to ask questions. We had well below our possession limit and daily limit however we had two pintails and he was certain one of us had shot both of them. I let him search my cabin and property and put up with him for an hour. In the end I got a warning ticket for not tagging my birds. Technically birds would need to be tagged in camp if not all hunters were present. But we were all there to account for our birds. It really left a bad taste in my mouth for enforcement and proved to me that if they want to tag you they can. I have no love for guides and outfitters but Toye got railroaded.

[Mallard_maniac]

The warden barely even looked at our birds last year. He quickly counted them and moved on. He payed more attention to our plugs, licenses, shot gun shells etc. Those items are black and white. "Party hunting" is so grey it would be impossible to prove. If you have a group limit, as long as it doesn't exceed 12, 18 whatever. Especially when you have to walk into an area. One dude carries the mojos, another the decoys and another the birds on a strap.

Unless they're watching you for a long period of time you're right. I had a buddy and two of his friends (I don't know them at all, forgive me if any of you were in on it) out one morning a few years back. They had 1 bird to go for their limit. A single comes in and all three shoot, the CO approached them and asked which one shot the bird and the buddy I know said he did.... the other 2 got tickets for party hunting. Realisitically they were all party hunting that day, no separating, no one knew who shot what, they just knew they could have "X" birds between the 3 of them. Based on his account, the CO would have liked to have written more and really they were guilty of more but this was the only black and white guilty beyond reasonable doubt citation he could get.

[Stute Slap]

Right or wrong, agree or disagree it's illegal and they can ticket you for it if they want. I have seen them do it or attempt to do it.

It's not all that hard to prove - the way it worked is the GW told one guy "pick out your birds immediately" if he was nervous or what and didn't do it right you only get one chance so if you screw it up and leave too many hens or whatever left over for you buddy they can write a ticket. If you are smart and you talk about before hand the first guys that have to pick out there birds need to max out their total limit and sexes so the last guy doesn't get screwed. The GW doesn't say "ok guys - go ahead and work together and separate all your birds into your individual piles" and let the group get it situated correctly IF he wants to write a ticket.

[Nershi]

Right or wrong, agree or disagree it's illegal and they can ticket you for it if they want. I have seen them do it or attempt to do it.

Sure they can ticket you but it isn't standing up in court.

Hobbydog, I would have been making a call to that CO's boss after that incident. That sounds terrible. Did you ever look to see if there is a law regarding tagging your birds? I've never heard of that requirement.

[Stute Slap]

Right or wrong, agree or disagree it's illegal and they can ticket you for it if they want. I have seen them do it or attempt to do it.

Sure they can ticket you but it isn't standing up in court.

Hobbydog, I would have been making a call to that CO's boss after that incident. That sounds terrible. Did you ever look to see if there is a law regarding tagging your birds? I've never heard of that requirement.

Have you ever been to court to fight a ticket before? If so what happened?