Bluebills

[lanyard]

Hybrids: they're "Lesser Greaters"!

Greaters do migrate through MN, but the lessees do in far greater numbers on an average year. Anymore, it seems more specs and snows are being shot in MN than Bluebills

[Fish Felon]

[I write this with my usual snarkiness not directed at Nershi but at hunters in general---thanks for the conversation Nershi---I do find your observation interesting and I am sincerely making no attempt to knock you---please don't take it that way]



I love how two guys can go hunting and one guy might be 6'4" and 250lbs with blue eyes and the other guy might be 5'6" and 140lbs with brown eyes....and each bring their dog, a lab of course, and one dog is massive at 120lbs and yellow and the other dog is 45lbs black and diminutive in it's face......

.......and then shoot birds and marvel at even the slightest differences between two specimens of the same species.....

.......as if they are genetically programmed to be completely cookie-cutter and identical to the point where a mallard with four curls versus three is something amazing or some bluebills shot a thousand miles away months later than the memories you're basing your comparison on might miraculously seem......

.......slightly different.


Every species has a range for "what defines their species," things like weight, wingspan, bill length, etc. Every species will also have outliers, us humans only need to look at the recent picture posted on social media of Yao Ming, Kevin Hart, and Shaq to understand my point.

Ducks really aren't that different than people in that they're all individually different and they receive half their genetic code from their mother and the other half from their father....again, just like us.

I'm sure you're familiar with the longstanding joke that Whites think all Blacks or Asians look the same and have a hard time telling them apart because they're a different race? And Blacks and Asians find it funny because they have no problem distinguishing individual traits for everyone among-st their race?

There's some truth to that.

Ducks are the same way. When they are congregating they don't look around and see each other how we see them....as uniform as the decoys we put out to represent their species....they can see individuals. I'm not saying when you see a half dozen wood ducks on a pond they see "Fred, Larry Moe, Curly, Bill and Jim," they obviously don't have that capacity for thought. But if you don't think a drake or hen can pick their mate out of a crowd you're nuts. The hen picking out a specific drake during courtship is what caused them to evolve the showy plumage they have...geese mate for life, you better believe a snow goose and gander that have been bonded for five years circling your decoys amongst a couple thousand others eighty yards up have no problem knowing exactly which one their mate is, and have no problem finding one another if they get separated. I've always wondered when watching snow geese especially and how they circle and some break off or work this way or travel back and forth when circling is perhaps more complex than we've ever given them credit for. I think hunters, myself included, tend to view almost everything they do as being purely random. When you stop and think about a pair of snow geese pair bonding for years and successfully raising multiple broods and making all those trips up and down the continent together mixed in with millions "just like them" at times....you realize it'd be almost impossible for much they do to be random.



Long story longer, I'm banking on them being plain old regular lesser scaup. Is it possible the bluebills you shot that were most likely wintering down there are coming from a different, maybe isolated, perhaps even a colony type breeding area and they are indeed smaller than the lesser scaup we shoot in MN? Yes, it's possible but extremely unlikely IMO. You can look up or contact the local USFWS to get the band data. New species are found all the time as are corrections----only a half century ago snow geese and blue geese were separate species in every book....now we know better.

Maybe you just found the true "lesser" scaup and what we've been shooting is "medium" scaup and the occasional greater?



Let me ask you this, how would you catalog and prove they are indeed significantly smaller and possibly a different species?


I'll tell you how I'd do it but I want you to think about it first.

[Nershi]

Interesting points FF.

I do not plan on hunting TX any time soon but if I do down the road maybe I will try to catalog the sizes. I suppose I could have my buddy who lives down there take some measurements but to be honest I don't care enough to go through the hassle. I shoot a lot of bluebills in MN each year (believe it or not) and I'd guess these were 20-30% smaller than the birds I shoot up here. It was very noticeable. I just found it interesting and thought someone may have some info on this site.

[lanyard]

We gave you the information. You didn't like it

[Nershi]

Theories and information are two very different things. I liked the theories just fine.

[lanyard]

You said: why are ducks smaller?

I said: lose body mass on migration.

You said: No.

I said: okay, possible explanation is body mass ratios sure to breeding location.

You said: No.

I said: if it were a different species it wouldn't be a secret.

You said: they're so much smaller....

Other dude says: Hit up Al Afton, leader of the longest study on Scaup.

You said: No

I don't see how using verifiable information to offer factual explanation is "theory, not information".

It would seem more of a case of attribution bias where the existence you observed in a small sample weighs more heavily than information derived from large samples.

I'm fine with the " Lesser Lesser/Lesser Greater " sub-species argument, and think FF should submit it to the Symposium as a CE credit

[Quack]

Since we are basically Minnesota hunters, can you provide a size comparison from your Texas bluebells that we can relate to? Were they larger than the average Minnesota ringneck? Same? Smaller?

[h2ofwlr]

On adult drakes it is fairly easy to tell them a part in hand. The Greater's have a Green hue on their black head and the Lesser's a purple hue to the black. Side by side there is a distinct size difference.

[deet]

Discontent with my ignorance, I did the responsible thing and googled it ("it" being lesser vs greater scaup).

The most obvious difference is, of course, the size. But without one of each for juxtaposition, it's not so straightforward. Then for coloring, it's even less clear. Greaters are supposed to have more profound colors, i.e. whiter whites and an overall "cleaner" appearance. But I don't think I can use that guideline for distinction, as I shoot them mostly in mid-October, and they're not all that brilliant.

As far as greaters' heads shining more green and lesser's more purple, I don't buy that. Every scaup I've killed had heads that could shine green, blue, and purple, and variations of all three, depending on angles of light reflection.

I doubt that I've ever killed a greater.

Al why do you still have me in your signature line? Kinda made a little more sense (though still stupid) when you were poking fun at several people, but now you've singled me out.

[Nershi]

I agree the hue's have nothing to do with it. Any nice drake is going to have purples and greens and a nice lacy back.

Quack I'd say they were similar size or a little smaller than our ringers.