How Much Have You Spent for Hunting So Far?

[Mallard_maniac]

I will repeat this...it was originally started for the traditionalist. That's all I was saying.

You need to step back and take a breath and read what people are saying because you are trying to argue where there is no argument to be had.

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. ML's were first recognized as a legal firearms for deer hunting in 1976. Advocates proposed a seperate ML season which was granted in 77' simply for opportunity, not tradition... By doing so they expanded their days afield, in fact it's completely opposite of what you're saying.... if it was about "tradition" the purists would have wanted it kept during the regular firearms season so they'd be hunting deer during the rut (arguably the best time to be deer hunting). However, They proposed a 2nd season so they could gun hunt and then pick up a smoke pole later in Dec (a true traditionalist wouldn't be hunting with a modern firearm in the first place). It's also worth noting that at the time, 99.9% of ML hunters were shooting the most technologically advanced ML's on the market (percussion cap).... If they were true traditionalists they would have advocated flintlocks only which was never brought forth.

I'm not trying to argue anything, scopes are legal now so our opinions don't really mean anything any longer. All I'm saying is that a bulk of the founding fathers of what became our ML season really didn't care about percussion caps, buckskin jackets and roundballs. As inlines phased in most traded up.... There's still a few purists but the season wasn't built around the traditionalism of primitive firearms, it's simply all that was available back then. But when someone makes such an outrageous statement that ML hunters shouldn't get scopes because their uneducated perception is the season should be primitive weapons only, I'll certainly not hesitate to point out that the original intent was not to make a primitive weapon season (even though that's all that was available at the time), but to create more opportunity for hunters.

No disadvantage with archery or muzzle loader? Surely you are trolling - now I'm the sucker.

I get what he's saying, although I'm not totally on board it's a common perception. ML are still a single shot, bows still only fly at (real world arrow flight) below 300fps usually, etc... they each come with limitations albeit less than it once was. The biggest disadvantage I see for smokepolers now though is where their season sits in the entire grand scheme deer season, not the weapons themselves.

[Stute Slap]

Obviously there is a disadvantage to muzzle loading and archery versus a rifle. That's all I'm saying. It's ridiculous to say there isn't.

It's no wonder we don't have a teal season in this state.

[Bullet21XD]

It's no wonder we don't have a teal season in this state.

Because of the muzzleloaders?

[lanyard]

Obviously there is a disadvantage to muzzle loading and archery versus a rifle. That's all I'm saying. It's ridiculous to say there isn't.

It's no wonder we don't have a teal season in this state.

Wheels are falling off now.

Let's work down disadvantages:

Rifle
Shotgun
Muzzleloader
Archery
Spears/Atlatl (no season, yet, but there are those interested....: http://www.thudscave.com/petroglyphs/atlatlstatelaws.htm )

Rifle- high capacity, high power, solid out to 1000 yards in the hands of a capable shooter. Most shooters AREN'T capable, and shoot deer under 100 yards. Can be scoped for improved accuracy.

Shotgun- high capacity, lower power, effective out to 100+ with a rifled barrel, can be scoped for approved accuracy. Most shots under 100 yes unless you're an old duffer shooting horses out from underneath the neighbor girl.

Muzzleloader- modern version are effective out to 200 yd in the hands of capable shooters. Most shooters AREN'T capable, and shoot deer under 100 yards. Obviously, they only get one shot.

Archery- Maximum effective range 40-50 yds in the hands of a capable shooter, but really more like under 40 yds for most. Due to the expense and the time, less jack holes generally. One shot generally. Used to have to hold the string at full draw weight, now with let off and cross bow, that has gotten significantly less.

The issue here is NOT whether one is necessarily disadvantaged over another, nor if one takes more skill than another, it's about the unique/special season mentality. I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE AN ARCHERY SEASON, OR A MUZZLELOADER SEASON, OR FRICKING SPEAR SEASON, but let's stop pretending that shooting a white tail with any of the above is so damned difficult you need from Sept 16 to Dec 31 to arrow a deer. What's different is that you need that long to arrow the RIGHT deer. Every conversation I've had with an archer goes one of two ways, "Nah, I'm not seeing anything. Well, bunch of does and yearlings... had a small basketed 6 at 40 yards but couldn't draw him in...." OR "... I wouldn't have shot her, but with the work schedule I got probably not a lot of weekends left for me so I figured I'd put some meat in the freezer...."

Meanwhile, the rifle hunters be like, "Damn, it was the first brown thing I saw so I shot it. Whack 'em and stack 'em, if it's brown it's down!", if they have a doe permit. If not, they're likely shooting less deer than an archery hunter that wants meat.

Like MOST hoody-wearing wankers, MOST Firearms deer hunters are wayyyyy over powered for a) the scenario they actual shoot; and b) their ability. MOST of them have the firearms effectiveness of a muzzleloader. SO, yes, a muzzleloader is a disadvantage because it is one shot, but the point you're putting scopes on it and load it like a single shot shotgun, I'm not feeling sniffly you need to abide by the antler less permit rules for the area you are hunting, you're not giving up much in the way of effectiveness from the stand point of what it takes to actually kill a deer, other than you're going AFTER all the ram-rods have littered the public access points with beer cans and shell casings from checking their accuracy AFTER they missed a deer.

Archery- I KNOW your 300 fps carbon tipped arrow is no match for a 7mm Rem Mag. And I DON"T CARE you need 90 days to make your arrow hit a deer, or not. But PLEASE don't give me this "OMG, it's so hard"... you sound like a millennial needing a safe space. Yes, the cards are stacked against you more than the wanker with the BAR, but I'm guessing you're not an ass hat and that you archery hunt for that reason... it's harder.

It's not teal season these "extras" are like, it's more like YWD where you have some group that claims disadvantage and they need their own special time.

Again, I DON'T CARE THESE METHODS HAVE THEIR OWN SPECIAL TIME, but as the technology increases and the "specialness" moves closer to a standard margin of error, it will increasingly lower the differentiation between the types of pursuits. Like, what if Archery closed the weekend BEFORE firearms season? Well, statistically I'm betting not many are climbing into stands after Thanksgiving. The first 3 weeks of the season is swatting mosquitos and bitching about fully foliaged leaves, etc. So really, how much of that "opportunity" matters? I don't know.

NOW, I plan on starting archery hunting next year NOT because I have some bug up my ass to carve a recurve from a sapling and weave goose entrails into a string... but it likely fits my schedule better for certain reasons and places I have access to. It is ONLY to increase my opportunity and I have an old single-cam compound collecting dust, so I'm in relatively cheap.

So, if you're gearing up your inline ML to shoot like a rifle because of the challenge, save yourself some coin and just chamber one round in grandpa's 30/30 during firearms season when the deer are supposedly running stupid and horny, rather than that stale post rut tundra period after Thanksgiving.

I don't even know how this became an argument. Put a scope on your muzzleloader, or put one shell in the chamber, or whatever. JFC.

[maplelakeduckslayer]

You're fired up tonight haha. You are exactly right about the "right" deer with archery...I pass on probably 30 deer a season within 30 yards. If I just wanted meat I could prolly fill my 2 deer limit this weekend. It's not that hard to arrow a deer...you're a hunter, part of being a hunter is putting yourself in locations that offer you the highest chance of success, aka a stand location where deer pass by at distances acceptable for your weapon of choice. Most guys don't know how to do that though

[lanyard]

In my previous firearms party. We had a group of five, where 3 if us shit deer consistently. The others.it was a banner season if one of them bagged one.

I'm the youngest by 12 years, then the next youngest is 8 years behind me. Once that next youngest kid came we added 3 more hunters in 5 years, then hunted another 7 or 8.

So, we almost doubled the number if hunters.

Our # of kills stayed the same. My dad, my uncle (12 years older than me), and myself weren't having kids come up. It was the kids if the guys that can't shoot crap. Apparently it's hereditary.

I would guess, if you replaced all the rifles with archery we'd have killed 25% less deer in the 5 days we hunted. If just the three of us got out 1 weekend prior to firearms, i'd guess we'd have shot the same number on the season.

We're down to two now. 1 died and we quit the rest. Our average kill rate per hunter over 2 years is 75%, and that's likely because I did more duck hunting than deer hunting.... and started a whole new woods.

Killers gonna kill. I haven't shot meat I don't like. I don't watch TV. I fricking paint decoys and pretend I'm going to get my canoe rebuild finished and I shoot things. And drink and cook the game I shoot.

My life is fairly miserable by society standards, and if I could walk from my kids and obligations i'dikely be far more miserable by society's standards, but more happy by mine.

Trust me, I already have the plan.

[greatwhitehunter3!]

Only thing I have bought so far is license/stamps. Have plenty of shells from years past and actually sold some decoys instead of buying.

[Stute Slap]

It's no wonder we don't have a teal season in this state.

Because of the muzzleloaders?

Muzzle loaders have a lot to do with it, also expanded spearing of northern pike played a role as well.

[Stute Slap]

Obviously there is a disadvantage to muzzle loading and archery versus a rifle. That's all I'm saying. It's ridiculous to say there isn't.

It's no wonder we don't have a teal season in this state.

Wheels are falling off now.

Let's work down disadvantages:

Rifle
Shotgun
Muzzleloader
Archery
Spears/Atlatl (no season, yet, but there are those interested....: http://www.thudscave.com/petroglyphs/atlatlstatelaws.htm )

Rifle- high capacity, high power, solid out to 1000 yards in the hands of a capable shooter. Most shooters AREN'T capable, and shoot deer under 100 yards. Can be scoped for improved accuracy.

Shotgun- high capacity, lower power, effective out to 100+ with a rifled barrel, can be scoped for approved accuracy. Most shots under 100 yes unless you're an old duffer shooting horses out from underneath the neighbor girl.

Muzzleloader- modern version are effective out to 200 yd in the hands of capable shooters. Most shooters AREN'T capable, and shoot deer under 100 yards. Obviously, they only get one shot.

Archery- Maximum effective range 40-50 yds in the hands of a capable shooter, but really more like under 40 yds for most. Due to the expense and the time, less jack holes generally. One shot generally. Used to have to hold the string at full draw weight, now with let off and cross bow, that has gotten significantly less.

The issue here is NOT whether one is necessarily disadvantaged over another, nor if one takes more skill than another, it's about the unique/special season mentality. I DON'T CARE IF YOU HAVE AN ARCHERY SEASON, OR A MUZZLELOADER SEASON, OR FRICKING SPEAR SEASON, but let's stop pretending that shooting a white tail with any of the above is so damned difficult you need from Sept 16 to Dec 31 to arrow a deer. What's different is that you need that long to arrow the RIGHT deer. Every conversation I've had with an archer goes one of two ways, "Nah, I'm not seeing anything. Well, bunch of does and yearlings... had a small basketed 6 at 40 yards but couldn't draw him in...." OR "... I wouldn't have shot her, but with the work schedule I got probably not a lot of weekends left for me so I figured I'd put some meat in the freezer...."

Meanwhile, the rifle hunters be like, "Damn, it was the first brown thing I saw so I shot it. Whack 'em and stack 'em, if it's brown it's down!", if they have a doe permit. If not, they're likely shooting less deer than an archery hunter that wants meat.

Like MOST hoody-wearing wankers, MOST Firearms deer hunters are wayyyyy over powered for a) the scenario they actual shoot; and b) their ability. MOST of them have the firearms effectiveness of a muzzleloader. SO, yes, a muzzleloader is a disadvantage because it is one shot, but the point you're putting scopes on it and load it like a single shot shotgun, I'm not feeling sniffly you need to abide by the antler less permit rules for the area you are hunting, you're not giving up much in the way of effectiveness from the stand point of what it takes to actually kill a deer, other than you're going AFTER all the ram-rods have littered the public access points with beer cans and shell casings from checking their accuracy AFTER they missed a deer.

Archery- I KNOW your 300 fps carbon tipped arrow is no match for a 7mm Rem Mag. And I DON"T CARE you need 90 days to make your arrow hit a deer, or not. But PLEASE don't give me this "OMG, it's so hard"... you sound like a millennial needing a safe space. Yes, the cards are stacked against you more than the wanker with the BAR, but I'm guessing you're not an ass hat and that you archery hunt for that reason... it's harder.

It's not teal season these "extras" are like, it's more like YWD where you have some group that claims disadvantage and they need their own special time.

Again, I DON'T CARE THESE METHODS HAVE THEIR OWN SPECIAL TIME, but as the technology increases and the "specialness" moves closer to a standard margin of error, it will increasingly lower the differentiation between the types of pursuits. Like, what if Archery closed the weekend BEFORE firearms season? Well, statistically I'm betting not many are climbing into stands after Thanksgiving. The first 3 weeks of the season is swatting mosquitos and bitching about fully foliaged leaves, etc. So really, how much of that "opportunity" matters? I don't know.

NOW, I plan on starting archery hunting next year NOT because I have some bug up my ass to carve a recurve from a sapling and weave goose entrails into a string... but it likely fits my schedule better for certain reasons and places I have access to. It is ONLY to increase my opportunity and I have an old single-cam compound collecting dust, so I'm in relatively cheap.

So, if you're gearing up your inline ML to shoot like a rifle because of the challenge, save yourself some coin and just chamber one round in grandpa's 30/30 during firearms season when the deer are supposedly running stupid and horny, rather than that stale post rut tundra period after Thanksgiving.

I don't even know how this became an argument. Put a scope on your muzzleloader, or put one shell in the chamber, or whatever. JFC.

I respectfully disagree.

[lanyard]

Stute, Glad we could have the conversation, I knew you see it my way!